Yeah I'm not sure about that takeaway, Vice. The biggest node on the Mastodon network is actually my ass

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@Gargron @kaniini Well looks like the same point made about Pleroma now has to be made about Mastodon.

The users of the software does not equal the software itself or its creators.

People of the fediverse, hear my simple appeal to logic. Lots of bad actors use Apache and NGINX, two very popular web service packages. Does that mean its developers are nazis, and anyone who uses these web daemons are nazi supporters?

Bad actors are always going to use good software.

@Gargron @kaniini Also related: Bad actors will also usually steal good software, and generally don't give two shits about its 'license'.

@alynna @Gargron @kaniini Kaniini is going to hate me for this take, but nobody ever douted nazis use Mastodon, what people did note is how some pleroma devs are seemingly closer or at least vocally indifferent to such actors.

Do note me saying /seemingly/.

@aurelia @Gargron @alynna

yes I'm indifferent to yelling and huffing about and beating on my chest like a manchild when it comes to Nazis being here.

instead I build tools and spread knowledge about how to keep any unwanted guests (including Nazis) out of your space, because that's what actually gets results in the end. if I am not doing what I am doing, Mastodon would still be leaking your posts to gab for the next several years.

people respond to marketing better than to actual work to keep users confident in the environment they have constructed.

this is unfortunate, and yet another data point in favor of modern society burning while some people in power play the violin and watch it burn like Nero.
@kaniini
I really don't mind talking to nazis, but its because they like to talk about video games.
@aurelia @Gargron @alynna

@kaniini oh, how misantripic

there's a lot of room between whatever manchild chestbeating is and whatever some pleroma devs do (i'm specifically not talking about you).

people are really sensitive to reactions like ice's because continuously saying you don't care about a topic that affects others weather they care or not is not exactly a good look - it doesn't mean you're a nazi, not really, it just means you can afford complacency that others cannot

you were also not the only one to push for signed pulls (and I had gab iptables'd for a while)

@kaniini contemporary fascism, especially the alt-right needs someone to constantly say "this is not normal, we will not accept this being normal", if you care for some theory

youtube.com/watch?v=Gq0ZHgKT2t

@aurelia I'm aware, but there's plenty of people already doing this. what there aren't is people building tools to actually remove them from the space. I'm here to do work, not join a chorus of people who are already yelling. I keep pointing out these threats for a reason -- so the people who want to do that side of the work can do it. let people work in the areas where their skills are most suited.
@aurelia

and, bluntly I've been doing this work in multiple projects over the course of almost three years now. i'm glad to see others care about security now, but you all were willing to keep calm and carry on shitposting up until actual alt-right instances started appearing like pieville.

if I had a dollar for every time I have been told by Mastodon users that my takes on security are hysterical or not grounded in reality or "gab will never join the fediverse," I could have already paid for SRS by now.
@aurelia

the entire reason I started working on Pleroma is because lain takes my work seriously and understands the threat models, because he wants to scale the fediverse to a billion users.

Mastodon people blew me off on metadata leakage, on basic access controls, on everything. if working with people some find distasteful is what is necessary to build a secure network that helps people vent and forge alliances, so be it.

@kaniini I did notice how when I first got into discussions on the masto discord that in some regards eugen was indeed quite naive, but I think the recent events and people like us constantly insisting this _needs_ to happen has changed his mind at least partially, like, we discussed anomaly detection via metrics recently, something he'd have put off as "doesn't solve an issue" 6 months ago.

@kaniini also wasn't lain the person who wants pleroma to be sufficiently hard to use so "normal" people and corporations don't try to run instances?

@aurelia

no. he had that stance back when Pleroma was pre-alpha, because people were very interested in using it due to what they disliked about Mastodon and GNU Social at that time, but as the software has become reliable, we have put a lot of effort into making onboarding easy.

i think it is reasonable to not want people to use unproven software in production. that's just asking for serious trouble, isn't it?

@kaniini huh, I didn't know that was the reason, I always just assumed pleroma wanted to carve out their comfy little part of the fediverse without serious ambitions. Good to know.

@kaniini Like, I know one of the speecific goals is to run on low-power hardware so people can actually run it on a pi from home, but I didn't read more into it

@aurelia yes, allowing people to self-host the software is part of the strategy to scale out. i believe many fediverse problems are caused by the large instances becoming so much of a liability that you have to conform to their wishes in order to keep federating with them. if we have millions of islands with a few hundred users max, then better community relations can exist.

@kaniini yeah, the only issue i see is that exposing a pi on your network to the internet always has been... problematic on most ISPs

@aurelia yes, but if it runs on a pi, it also runs on a shit-tier VPS, or one of those $2.50/month scaleway instances.
@aurelia well, back in the day, that was surely the intent, but intent evolves over time. that was back when people involved were skeptical about this fediverse experiment. needless to say, we're all in now.
@aurelia
I think both sides of the fedi are scared of authoritarians like I'm sorta bugged with radicals with both sides like with radical left saying free speech instances are bad or keep complaining about nazis and people defending said people bug me. Sorry for acting dumb.

@ice free speech instances /are/ bad, not because they allow free speech but because those words are mostly a shorthand for "we're fine with harassment and nazis".

We don't call places were marxism is discussed free speech instances, even though yes, that's a topic which US mainstream media would definitely not cover. Red scare and all.

@aurelia
Well like my main instance shitposter.club have banned people i guess some bad actors even spam bots and its i guess a free speech extreme had done the same in the past yet mastodon instances don't like them well because being such. Like i understand people living in countries where such don't really exist like eugan or lain because germany has weird laws but im from the us so i can only understand little of other stuff.
@aurelia
@ice How many free speech instances actually ban left-wing users?
@aurelia
Mean like people on here i seen have been called alt right are centerist,conservative and boomers.
@alynna
If a nazi uses
Google does that means google is for nazis? Like thats most logic i seen from mastodon users
@kaniini @Gargron
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